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Mon May 14 9:53 am  #31


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

cGrant wrote:

splunge wrote:

comparing toronto 'out of market' stations from north york or brampton to orangeville is apples to... well.. oranges.

as for who cares.... ask radio listeners in dufferin county what they think of this 'local' radio service. there is a reason why mbc and bayshore got and get so much support while cidc doesnt make a blip.

So, CFNY, CFMJ etc, are really Toronto stations OR the city of license? Those ARE a valid comparisons, oranges and oranges.

As for "who cares"? Your argument includes the notion that someone listens to a specific radio station exclusively because it is strictly originating from their place of presence is false. I don't see someone from Oshawa listening to that gawd-awful Satan-worshipping Rock station if their musical taste reflects classical.
 

Actually, there is a difference as Brampton and North York are both part of the GTA while Orangeville isn't.

 

Mon May 14 10:53 am  #32


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

@PwrSurge

As far as I recall Orangeville *is* part of the GTA at least as far as Numeris is concerned.  Doesn't it get rated as Toronto?  And while Orangeville is just a sliver into Dufferin Country, Caledon (which is what Z serves) is part of the GTA.  The GTA is defined as Toronto, Peel, Halton and York (or so the internet tells me). 

And all technical stuff aside, the vast majority of those living near Orangeville likely work in Peel Region or even Toronto outside local service workers.

As for your comparison using CFNY.  When 102.1 came on the air it was licensed to Brampton.  Back in the 70's there was no GTA.  Brampton was a stand alone city with a whole bunch of grass between it and Mississauga (and Toronto).  Over the years the cities have all met up and we have the GTA.  I'd argue the same with Orangeville, Milton, Cobourg, and a whole bunch of towns north of Highway 7.  Is Newmarket in the GTA?  Toronto is very much different than say Calgary where there is a defined city limit and little commuting. 

And really, why should the commission tell a station what market they can sell advertising in?  If there are 40,000 listeners to Z103 in KW why not sell ads here?  If the local stations protest, well amp it up and work a little harder. 
 

 

Mon May 14 11:00 am  #33


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

The market is defined by the CMA (Stats Can / Numeris) or the 3mV contour which ever is smallest.
From the horse's mouth all 3 Evanov stations are in the Toronto market:
(source CRTC) https://crtc.gc.ca/ownership/eng/toronto.htm

 

Mon May 14 11:10 am  #34


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Irvine wrote:

And really, why should the commission tell a station what market they can sell advertising in?  If there are 40,000 listeners to Z103 in KW why not sell ads here?  If the local stations protest, well amp it up and work a little harder. 

I believe the parameters our regulatory system use to render these sorts of decisions are dated and lack pragmatism. I can think of at least five denied applications over the past 10 years where the reality of today's Toronto (and GTA) doesn't seem to have been factored in.

I respectfully submit the debate on this thread is being argued through the same old foggy lens. Radio frequencies are a precious and limited resource - particularly in Toronto (unscientific metric of population to number of stations available).

To me, it's a simple question... What is the most efficient way to deploy radio frequencies to best serve today's listening public? These two mutually exclusive applications from Evanov are an opportunity to adjust for frequency allocation planning that goes back to population assumptions made in 1950s. Things have changed in ways no one could have foreseen more than half a century ago. In North America, only Mexico City, LA and New York are larger than Toronto - a prospect that would have been abserd back then.

Last edited by Tim Brown 2016 (Mon May 14 12:23 pm)

 

Mon May 14 11:24 am  #35


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

]

Irvine wrote:

And really, why should the commission tell a station what market they can sell advertising in?  If there are 40,000 listeners to Z103 in KW why not sell ads here?  If the local stations protest, well amp it up and work a little harder. 
 

That's a stronger debate for border radio stations.
101.1 FM in Niagara falls made more money targeting Buffalo area listeners, did they not? 
Chez 106 in Ottawa should be thankful that FOX FM's signal is too weak. 
Remember when Fox flew a plane over Ottawa with a banner than read "Go leafs go listen to CHEZ 106" LOL!!!
Priceless! 
Targeting Cornwall  Ontario would have been smarter though, since that's where the Fox's signal is/was stronger.

 

 

Mon May 14 11:46 am  #36


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Well, folks, you can't have it both ways. Either you fully support the dystopian and draconian mandate of the CRTC or "let 'er rip" and drop their manifesto and let broadcasters do what they want.

Personally, I support the latter. I want less government in my life.

 

Mon May 14 12:02 pm  #37


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

cGrant wrote:

Well, folks, you can't have it both ways. Either you fully support the dystopian and draconian mandate of the CRTC or "let 'er rip" and drop their manifesto and let broadcasters do what they want.

Personally, I support the latter. I want less government in my life.

I'm not bringing my left verses right, more verses less government position into this discussion. (cGrant would bury me alive!).

What I am bringing is the belief that our regulatory system hasn't served Toronto well with regards to FM radio.

Last edited by Tim Brown 2016 (Mon May 14 12:24 pm)

 

Mon May 14 12:20 pm  #38


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Irvine wrote:

@Mike Marshall

That wiki entry has existed for years and in this whole debate it's a moot point.  For several years I lived in the Rocky Mountains. To say winter is extreme there is an understatement as is any back country risk.  I frequently was delayed by avalanches (up to 4 days) and from heavy pounding snow.  Never once did I rely on FM radio as a source for information. 

It's no different in Orangeville whether you're getting your information from Z103 or My FM.  While Z is live most of the time it's unlikely they have a news team waiting around for another F4 tornado.  And it's likely MY FM is simply voice tracked in the evening so the tornado would hit, kill me & they'd hear of my death on the news the next morning when the station went live.  Assuming it was on the air. 

This is the fallacy of the "it's local" that is often referred to on this forum.  It's not even about being live, it's about having the resources to know *if* there is an emergency.  The only stations that do that would be 680 News or maybe 1010 CFRB.  So having a local station to tell me about a local tornado is a moot point.  That type of system is better suited to the smart phone world just like traffic is.   ""Hey Siri, what's the traffic conditions on the 401 to London" garners me a quicker more accurate answer than even 680 News does. 

The CRTC needs to leave Evanov alone and recognize all that his station HAS did for the industry. It's created decent stable jobs.  It's STUCK to it's format for a quarter century.  Along the way more than a few Cancon acts got their break because they took a chance playing them.  And for a while Z was the ONLY Toronto Top 40 station.  And for a longer while it gave us CHR fans outside of the city something to listen too.  It should be commended and recognized for what it's did for radio, not derided by some civil servant of some angry radio "insider". 
 

Well said.  CIDC was also always one of those out of the box stations and still is.  People who listen to them dont care where its from.  I grew up with the station in my younger years, and the signal was always an issue in the GTA however was cool to have a station you love pull in the GTA and the cottage.

 

 

Mon May 14 3:53 pm  #39


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

cGrant wrote:

Well, folks, you can't have it both ways. Either you fully support the dystopian and draconian mandate of the CRTC or "let 'er rip" and drop their manifesto and let broadcasters do what they want.

Personally, I support the latter. I want less government in my life.

I believe there needs to be some oversight by government but it needs to be limited & more about structure & logistics.

I raise my eye at this because Evanov has been doing the same thing for like 22 years and suddenly it's an issue. Further, the micro station G98.7 is another example.  We had Flow come along to "serve the Toronto black community" yet it was no issue for them to sell out and become a cookie cutter hip hop station (and later just play waybacks).  THEN..there is G98.7 who do an excellent job serving the "black" community.  They support the community and appear to be successful but the CRTC is up their ass for non compliance.  Notice the trend here?  The little guy being called on the carpet whereas the major's get a free pass.  My first thought is "some type of backroom dealing is going on". 

The problem with the CRTC is they try to dictate culture versus allow stations to nurture it organically.  The regulations are not granular enough either.  35% Cancon can be a positive aspect for say an indie rock station.  For a Oldies station it's an albatross.  They need to differentiate a market like Calgary with defined borders versus Toronto which is really just a large region.  Or in the case of CBC Radio 2, we've got a government funded station that plays...music from dead Europeans during the day (Classical).  Or a TV network which plays canned American programming.  Yet the Commission doesn't seem to mind that.  And unlike cGrant I'm perfectly content with a national broadcaster but it should be focused on all things Canadian not classical music or Simpson reruns. 
 

 

Mon May 14 4:23 pm  #40


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Irvine wrote:

unlike cGrant I'm perfectly content with a national broadcaster but it should be focused on all things Canadian not classical music or Simpson reruns. 

Well, guess what? That's not going to happen. So, for that reason, I detest Ma Corp. Broadcasting ending reruns of an American cartoon or British hee-haw dentally-challenged soap does, unequivocally, NOT bind this country together.
 

 

Tue May 15 7:22 am  #41


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

I recall hearing a few years ago that Evanov was approaching debt-laden college radio stations like CIUT offering them cash for a frequency swap.

 

Tue May 15 11:36 am  #42


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Where is the link to the application file with all the coverage attachments for their latest request? 

 

Tue May 15 11:53 am  #43


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

They're located in the part of the CRTC website Applications Open for Comment, which isn't always easy to find. The problem with linking to them is that you have to download a .zip file, so there's no pure page to link to. If you're game to see everything and don't mind putting the file on your phone or PC, here are the direct ways to get both

CIDC Application

CIRR Application

If you have trouble with those, you can find the general page here and scroll down to the two Dufferin Communications applications.  

And by the way, it's worth noting that among all the paperwork is a statement from Brookfield Properties confirming that, should the 103.5 swap be given, space would be available for a transmitter on First Canadian Place, combining with the existing CIRV at 88.9, with Dufferin picking up the tab for any costs incurred.

     Thread Starter
 

Tue May 15 12:47 pm  #44


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

RadioActive wrote:

They're located in the part of the CRTC website Applications Open for Comment, which isn't always easy to find. The problem with linking to them is that you have to download a .zip file, so there's no pure page to link to. If you're game to see everything and don't mind putting the file on your phone or PC, here are the direct ways to get both

CIDC Application

CIRR Application

If you have trouble with those, you can find the general page here and scroll down to the two Dufferin Communications applications.  

And by the way, it's worth noting that among all the paperwork is a statement from Brookfield Properties confirming that, should the 103.5 swap be given, space would be available for a transmitter on First Canadian Place, combining with the existing CIRV at 88.9, with Dufferin picking up the tab for any costs incurred.

Thanks for posting!

Its funny, because they still go on and on about the condos and their signal downtown 

More particularly, there have been more high-rise condominium projects completed
downtown in every year since 2010 than in any other year since 1990. This condominium construction
boom, that is still apparent in Toronto, has caused the topography and the demographics of the city to
change once again. The result is that CIDC-FM’s signal can no longer be heard clearly in many parts of
the CMA where it was traditionally heard. As a result, listeners who wish to tune the station in their car
to and from work, or at home, or in their new condominium downtown are no longer able, and they
have abandoned the station.

 

Tue May 15 3:18 pm  #45


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

markow202 wrote:

Its funny, because they still go on and on about the condos and their signal downtown 

 
The .zip wouldn't open on our iPad yesterday when I went looking for the latest application and any possible available comments. It opened easily this morning on one of our PCs. In the meantime, I made do looking at the previous CRTC decisions re CIDC, which didn't change my mind on this issue but the final outcome may require a bunch of English on the old cue ball.

This IS an Orangeville signal and under the current circumstances, it should remain so. Dufferin was NOT given a Toronto license. They've (Evanovs) done everything in their power to make it look like it is, but nothing's official. Yet.

The CRTC, because it allowed them to get away with it, is now between a rock and a hard place.

If they rule that CIDC should go back where it came from, it's going to complicate things for the now-existing community stations, which have not been happy with that in recent interventions. Can't blame them.

If the CRTC bows to this current flip, there will be major players who will demand to know why someone is being granted a *new* Toronto license unopposed.

Personally, I'd tell Dufferin no, you'll have to live with what you've got, don't forget you're an Orangeville station and all that goes with it. You've been lucky to get this far. Be careful what you wish for.

 

Tue May 15 5:58 pm  #46


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Irvine wrote:

And really, why should the commission tell a station what market they can sell advertising in?  If there are 40,000 listeners to Z103 in KW why not sell ads here?  If the local stations protest, well amp it up and work a little harder. 

Actually, another note about that, the CRTC is only dictating that ads must be local for things like Joe's garage. There is no actual law preventing an overdose of "Tide gets your clothes clean..." etc.
 

 

Wed May 16 8:10 am  #47


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

The CRTC is in a rock and a hard place because CIDC has been a "Toronto" area station since 1995.  You can't show up at some guys business after 22 years and say "breach".  Hell, any good lawyer would send that one down in flames. 

Personally I think the hate on for Evanov is specific to the industry and this forum.  As long as I've read this forum (since 2002) Evanov has always been a target of posters here.  Digs at the focus on Italian culture in the original days. Digs at the salaries at the station (supposedly).  Digs at Evanov himself.  Yet strangely he's got the most stable staff in *all* of the industry. 

As for the CRTC "bowing" to get a new license to Toronto, that's nothing more than trolling on your behalf Mike Marshall.  Z103 has been booming into Toronto & playing live at the clubs there since 1994-5.  It IS a GTA radio station plain and simple.  Just because some civil servant feels it's not doesn't change that.  And my guess is not one single listener cares that they identify from Orangeville either. 




 

 

Wed May 16 8:42 am  #48


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Irvine wrote:

     As for the CRTC "bowing" to get a new license to Toronto, that's nothing more than trolling on your behalf Mike Marshall.    

Mike Marshall is a friend of mine.   Mike is not a troll.    I should know.    I'm a troll.

geo
 

 

Wed May 16 9:18 am  #49


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

geo wrote:

Irvine wrote:

     As for the CRTC "bowing" to get a new license to Toronto, that's nothing more than trolling on your behalf Mike Marshall.    

Mike Marshall is a friend of mine.   Mike is not a troll.    I should know.    I'm a troll.

geo
 

I want to echo geo's remarks. I almost have to laugh at affixing a label like "troll" to Mike.

Mike is a superb broadcaster and in my experience a genuinely nice person. He's shown me nothing but generosity in sharing his insights on radio whenever we've had the chance to speak. I'm taking a different position from Mike in this conversation but I sure have no less respect for him.

Mike, moving away from speaking of you in the third person, I hope you are well these days.

 

Wed May 16 11:25 am  #50


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Irvine wrote:

The CRTC is in a rock and a hard place because CIDC has been a "Toronto" area station since 1995.  You can't show up at some guys business after 22 years and say "breach".  Hell, any good lawyer would send that one down in flames. 

Personally I think the hate on for Evanov is specific to the industry and this forum.  As long as I've read this forum (since 2002) Evanov has always been a target of posters here.  Digs at the focus on Italian culture in the original days. Digs at the salaries at the station (supposedly).  Digs at Evanov himself.  Yet strangely he's got the most stable staff in *all* of the industry. 

As for the CRTC "bowing" to get a new license to Toronto, that's nothing more than trolling on your behalf Mike Marshall.  Z103 has been booming into Toronto & playing live at the clubs there since 1994-5.  It IS a GTA radio station plain and simple.  Just because some civil servant feels it's not doesn't change that.  And my guess is not one single listener cares that they identify from Orangeville either. 




 

Id have to say thats point on Irvine.  Id also have to say no other station out there brought me to so many fun events, clubs in the younger years and the Summer Rush concerts as they were the ONLY ones who dared to play Eurodance music.  Would be a shame to see something happen to them.  Also gotta give credit to Evanov, he could have sold it all to Bell or whoever and watch it go down in flames, however I still cant see this being approved.  Their application was copy/pasted mostly from the last 3 previous attempts consisting of lots of condos and poor signal in downtown T.O all of which was denied. 

Its all a waste of time.  I dont know of anyone including myself who would get my radio out, pull the antenna up and tune into a station like I did before.  With bluetooth and wifi always connected to some device if I want to hear radio ill stream it.   This goes also for toronto stations with a great signal!    Car is a different story, and their signal isnt THAT bad in cars but again, not great for downtown (mono sounding).

Last edited by markow202 (Wed May 16 11:35 am)

 

Wed May 16 11:38 am  #51


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

markow202 wrote:

Id have to say thats point on Irvine. 

Good. If it's point on, then Evanov group should not have cried foul when My FM launched an actual Orangeville radio station to serve Orangeville properly. 
 

 

Wed May 16 2:48 pm  #52


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Thanks, geo and Tim. We were out the door very early today,so just got to this. Tim, things are good. Thank you for asking.

Look, this thread really doesn't have anything to do with the music the station plays (the montages didn't help), any awards it won, the stability of staff, etc. CIDC is an Orangeville (legally) signal attempting to extend it to pretty well cover the Toronto market. Nothing personal on my part, but I don't think DCI should get it.

One further thought: If the CRTC gives them this, can you imagine how much more the license would be worth?

 

Wed May 16 6:45 pm  #53


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

@Mike

Imagine you bought a house in 1994. The house came with a pool.  You lived in that house for 22 years & then some "Commission" guy comes along and says "you can't have that pool, you're not allowed in this area of town".  You'd reply "well I've had it for 22 years".  That's exactly the situation with Z103.5.  If the commission had of acted on this in the mid 90's it might be different.  

Now the question is why didn't they act on it?  Well if you remember the 90's it was served by 2 hit leaning stations..Energy 108 and Hot 103.5.  Both out of town. And the pre Jack "Kiss 92.5" aside Toronto only choice for CHR was ...Z103.5. Now there are multiple competitors & well golly gosh gee, now there are complaints.  I wonder why. 

You know what the real irony is?  Z103 is actually more reflective of Toronto than it's competitors.  It's given airtime to dozens of Canadian artists that other stations have not.  It's inclusive to all people and has embraced pop hits from other countries in other languages (Spanish, Greek, Italian, Portuguese, Panjabi, hell I remember a song in Arabian being on the station.  And if you include Energy 108 in the mix it was them and Hot 103.5 that really embraced urban/black culture in Toronto long before Flow came on the air.  In fact, in the culture of radio, Z103 is the only station that stayed (somewhat) true to it's roots.  Flow was given a license & promptly forgot about the culture it promised to serve. Nobody said a word.  CFNY promises to support "new Canadian music" yet it's far less progressive with new Cancon that say X92.9, Sonic or The Peak.  And how about the two talk stations who committed to news & information but have many time slots filled by cheap "vacuum cleaner sales types" who shill themselves & offer nothing but conjecture.  And let's not forget a favorite not mentioned here: AM740.  Originally an Oakville station that would later bid for 88.1 and then 96.7.  Nary a negative word on that.  None of the old timers on here were complaining how a Halton station was "creeping into Toronto"

@RadioWiz.  Debunking your statement

-.  Any radio station owner is going to petition against incoming competition regardless. I saw a situation in BC where big radio petitioned against a small community station. 
-   Z did nothing illegal by petitioning against My FM.  The process the CRTC creates ENCOURAGES this so they went ahead and did it. 

BTW, while we're talking outrage at the actions of corporate radio, why not outrage at Bell "Let's Talk".  From what I read online it was a condition of the acquisition of Astral Media.  So who choose "mental health"?  And why no disclaimers that say "this was mandated" as part of the acquisition?  I mean even my local A&W tells me it's got hormone free chicken & then it tells you right underneath no chicken raised in Canada is given hormones.  Source:  http://blog.fagstein.com/2012/07/15/bell-astral-issues/


 

 

Wed May 16 10:00 pm  #54


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Irvine wrote:

Imagine you bought a house in 1994. The house came with a pool.  You lived in that house for 22 years & then some "Commission" guy comes along and says "you can't have that pool, you're not allowed in this area of town".  You'd reply "well I've had it for 22 years".  That's exactly the situation with Z103.5.

Not really. City Council isn't deleting the pool. It's just saying you can't tear it up and replace it with a much bigger pool. City bylaws and all that. And while you're at it, you should be paying more attention to your front yard or the neighbours will talk.
 

 

Wed May 16 10:47 pm  #55


Re: The Evanovs’ Latest Plan: Switch Pride FM To 103.5 & CIDC To 103.7

Irvine wrote:

@RadioWiz.  Debunking your statement
-.  Any radio station owner is going to petition against incoming competition regardless. I saw a situation in BC where big radio petitioned against a small community station. 
-   Z did nothing illegal by petitioning against My FM.  The process the CRTC creates ENCOURAGES this so they went ahead and did it. 

Nobody in Toronto is going to go all the way out to Orangeville to shop & Vice versa. Simple as that.
I never said that Evanov was doing anything illegal.
I'm saying abandonment is abandonment. 
My FM is not doing anything illegal serving Orangeville properly either. They were given a broadcast licence because Evanov group failed to serve Orangeville properly.

Serve your place of licence properly or accept the consequences when the time comes.
Evanov is very lucky MY FM (or anyone) didn't choose to go after a broadcast licence for Orangeville a lot sooner.
& It's another little guy too, so you can't say that CRTC is just playing favourites to the big guys in doing so.